Biggest Political Manifestation in Brazilian History - March 13, 2016

Discussion in 'Mexi-Mayhem' started by Fatale, Mar 15, 2016.

  1. Man Against Time Black Hole Melchizedek

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    This is false and the labor theory of value has been considered bunk by anyone with sense for close to a century now if not longer. By citing it you demonstrate that you are little more than a brainwashed zealot of the Marx cult who doesn't know anything about actual economics. They also didn't "appropriate" any labor in that instance anyway - they paid for it. The fact that you may believe that some laborers received an undesirable wage reflects little more than ignorance and misguided paternalism on your part. Those workers freely contracted to work for whatever wage they earned; many of them were content to obtain the work they procured and many specifically immigrated to industrialized areas for the express purpose of obtaining work under those conditions. It's entirely unreasonable to expect inexperienced, uneducated, illiterate, and unskilled laborers to command a high wage or salary under any conditions for the most obvious reasons. Such laborers were not even highly valued relatively speaking within avowedly "Communist" state capitalist countries of the Marxist-Leninist persuasion.

    Efficiency, growth, "appropriated value," and "riches" comes from capital-intensive production, not labor-intensive production. Shit, as stupid as they were, even the Soviets realized that eventually. It's the difference between horses and horsepower, antique farm equipment in the field (dancin' half-naked spooks) and tractors. In the case of capitalism vs. communism, it's the difference between the production of an obesity epidemic and the engineering of a man-made famine.
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  2. Johnson HEIL HITLER.

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    As much as I love a good anti-Communist demonstration, I have to wonder what percentage of these protestors voted for Lula and/or Dilma. I don't have much sympathy for the political version of buyer's remorse. There's no excuse for electing Socialists, ever.
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  3. Man Against Time Black Hole Melchizedek

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    "The reformers of the period put me off, in the first instance, by their careless superficial use of abstract terms. They talked about the oppressiveness of capital, the evils of the capitalist system, the iniquities of finance-capitalism, and so on, apparently with no idea of what those terms mean. To me, therefore, most of what they said was sheer nonsense. I knew that no society ever did or could exist without employing capital, and my notion was that wherever capital is at work, there of necessity is capitalism and a capitalist system. As I saw it, there was nothing in the nature of capital that was unjust or oppressive, but quite the contrary. I could see that injustice and oppression were likely to follow when great capitalists were in a position of State-created economic advantage, like Mr. Carnegie with his tariffs or the “railway-magnates” with their land-grants; but the same results seemed as likely to follow where small capitalists or non-capitalists were in a similarly privileged position. Spencer’s Social Statics, published in 1851, had shown me that under such a government as he contemplated,—a government divested of all power to traffic in economic advantage,— injustice and oppression would tend to disappear. As long as the State stood as an approachable huckster of privilege, however, there seemed no chance but that they must persist, and that the consequent social disorder must persist also." - Albert Jay Nock

    This is why even the Marxist-Leninist countries could technically even be described as "capitalists" or "with capitalist features," and why brain-rotted Marxists can continue to claim that the failure of those enterprises cannot be attributed to Marxism because they weren't "purely Marxist." This argument can be employed ad infinitum because "pure Marxism" cannot exist in the real world; it is an entirely implausible mental abstraction. Nor will the so-called "forces of history" propel a decadent capitalist state into the dictatorship of the proletariat, the end of history, and Marxist utopia. Marx was no different from any other ideological huckster who facilitated cult-like thinking in his followers and heirs. He was a failed and shoddy economist, a failed historian, and a failed prognosticator. He was also apparently a pretty crappy writer as no self-proclaimed "Marxist" on Earth has actually read through Das Kapital. Even Adolf Hitler was a better writer in that respect.

    It's time to wake up from that Marxist dream (nightmare). The doctrine is so failed and discredited that individuals with genuine Marxist sympathies will not even identify with them publicly any longer. Ironically, the faith evolved into a new "opiate of the masses," but typically for disgruntled teenaged Rage Against the Machine bedtime revolutionaries who couldn't comprehend any of the ancillary concepts anyway. They couldn't comprehend the causes or the effects, and in that sense it was less like an opiate and more like crack.
  4. Mandalore in recovery from sobriety

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    I remember being about 12 and thinking that Rage Against the Machine and Che were cool -in spite of how they looked- because they were standing up to the people who were oppressing me. It took me less than a year to understand that it was actually the kikes and commies who were trampling all over my rights as a human being and that decadent fake commie bands were their lapdogs. If an adolescent shithead can figure that out in the midst of discovering pussy, drugs and heavy metal, there is absolutely NO excuse for the rest of the world to still not get it.

    This was when I realized precisely why my father was such a disgusting excuse for a man, for he had swallowed the communist rhetoric hook, line and sinker back in the Woodstock era. When you look at it from the point-of-view of an utterly mediocre man who eats shit 24/7, that kind of ideology is very appealing. Nobody else is going to tell you that you deserve the best simply because you have a shitty job, in spite of the fact that even your own family thinks of you as a cowardly, dimwitted bully. That's why it's so alluring to 3rd worlders, for whom only a fraction of a percent could ever hope to do more than clean up dog shit in a system based on merit.
  5. il ragno Proud American Deplorable

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    Not necessarily so. There was a damn good reason for even a Klansman to pull the lever for Obama back in '08, and its name was JOHN McCAIN.

    Even though the entire pinkosphere decided to fixate on Palin as the Nightmare on Pennsylvania Avenue we must avoid at all costs - in fact, they've never stopped drawing devil-horns on her - to anybody paying attention, McCain was the #1 clear and present danger to all living creatures. I know nothing about this Bolsonaro fellow, but I know enough to want to keep him at arm's length if not farther - Brazil seems a safe enough distance - just in case those McCain fumes he exfoliates should ever combust.

    [IMG] [IMG]
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  6. Revolutionary Active Member

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    Evidence? Certainly pro-capitalist economists have attempted to refute the LTV, most notably with the so-called transformation problem but that has long been answered in favor of Marx.
    No, surplus value or unpaid labor is the source of the aggregate profit of capital, ethics doesn't have to be brought into the argument at all, the necessity of exploitation of labor to generate profit can be demonstrated logically and mathematically.
    No, the capitalists always have the upper hand in those "contracts" that's why trade unions arose.
    It isn't about paying laborers an arbitrarily "high wage" it's about paying laborers for the objectively full value of their labor; that is impossible in capitalism

    It is obvious that the more constant capital (machinery) involved in production the more efficient the production and thus less socially necessary labor time will need to be invested in the commodity, however less exchange value will be embodied in any given quantity of that commodity. This isn't to say that more automated industries will be more profitable than less automated industries since the aggregate capital is distributed relatively equitably across industries forming an average rate of profit.
    Why would the Soviets not understand that machinery increases efficiency?
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  7. Man Against Time Black Hole Melchizedek

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    That is completely false. That is part of the reason why Marx's labor theory of value is bunk; it completely ignores the effect of supply & demand on labor. It ignores the value created created by ownership and management. It completely ignores the value created by intellectual property and technological efficiencies, which is going to be most of the pie these days, especially in the twenty-first century. In essence Marx completely invalidates the value and efficiencies created by knowledge in general - the know-how to create products efficiently and at low cost, the value contributed by something as simple as the "Coca-Cola secret recipe," and so forth.

    Marx reasons that labor should be valued like a commodity, but that doesn't make any sense unless "the capitalist" physically owns the laborer as if he were a slave, and this isn't the case. The owner of capital does not get to confine and maintain a laborer as if he were a work horse so there is just no way you can value the cost of labor as if that were true. If a laborer wants to command that level of value, then he must contract for it in the (Henry) Fordist manner, when workers were paid way above the market rate but had to give up certain liberties, although a concept like that necessarily implies that a labor union will not exist since Mr. Ford was intensely selective in hiring.

    If Marx's premises were true, then the implications of his reasoning would be obvious, but they are objectively false and entirely imaginary. It doesn't apply to very many actual firms in the real world. If Marx's theory were true, then the surplus value extracted from labor would depend entirely on how much labor is used in production. As total labor used in production goes towards zero, the opportunity to exploit workers would go away, and with it profits would have to fall. But we know that actually isn't the case in the real world of real people, of real actors and real entrepreneurs. In fact the complete opposite is true. Ever work in an automated bottling plant, where all it requires is one or two workers to press a button? How about the American tobacco industry being launched from a cigarette machine that could produce thousands of cigarettes in little time with virtually no labor input at all? The existence of working firms like that completely debunks the labor theory of value. There's your evidence. The producers in those instances become the dead men who designed the intellectual property, the value of which Marx's theory completely ignores.

    Under this line of reasoning there can never be a "fair" form of employment. It can only be fair if labor essentially extorts the wage that it desires from ownership, allowing them to control the supply of labor and even recruitment. This in itself is unfair bargaining, both to the owners of capital and to anyone outside of the labor union. It turns labor union membership into a form of economic privilege. This is why labor unions almost always over-price their labor outside of their respective market and create VAST inefficiencies by disabling meritocratic hiring. Hiring becomes nepotist and crony-like, and it's still absolutely true today in America especially whether you're talking about teacher's unions or that of city electricians.

    LOL! There is no such thing as "objective value," period - not in the real world of the living and certainly not so in economics.

    Go enroll in an introductory economics class at a community college or something.
  8. Revolutionary Active Member

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    How so?
    [/quote]It ignores the value created created by ownership and management.[/quote]
    There is no value created by "ownership." What are needed are the means of production, the owners of the means of production are completely superfluous to the production process; a factory would function the same whether or not a capitalist owned the factory. Management is another thing entirely, it is a form of labor, mental labor but labor nonetheless.
    No he doesn't at all. Have you ever actually read Das Kapital? The more efficient production ie: the less labor needed to produce the commodity the less exchange value will be embodied per commodity but this can be compensated by the greater total quantity of the product that can be created as a result. Marx understood that competition leads to ever increasing efficiency in production but this also has the paradoxical effect of a long term tendency for the rate of profit to fall.
    Fair employment can only exist if the proletariat owns the means of production.
    Exchange value (as opposed to use value) is objective in Marx's conception as it is the socially necessary labor time expended in the production of a commodity. There is only so much total labor power in existence; the more of that labor power society directs towards the reproduction of a commodity the more society values its reproduction.
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  9. Man Against Time Black Hole Melchizedek

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    Nothing you have written is "objectively" or close to empirically true. You just keep recycling outdated, discredited, and widely refuted theories like a typical brainwashed cultist. The fact that you continue to claim that "ownership" does not contribute to the production process completely ignores the production value contributed by intellectual property, like I already said. Once again, consider the very simple example of the Coca-Cola recipe. Profits simply do not come from the "surplus value" extracted from "labor" in the real world. This only takes place in the imaginary world of Marx.

    Reread what I've written a few times and think about it.

    Lastly, the concept of an “objective,” “just” or “fair” price is devoid of any scientific meaning; it is a disguise for wishes, a striving for a state of affairs different from reality. Actual market prices are entirely determined by the subjective value judgments of men as they really act.
  10. Fatale Man-Eating Succubus

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  11. Man Against Time Black Hole Melchizedek

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    The Lebanese are apparently a junior form of Jew, practicing tribe-oriented predatory capitalism to live as market-dominant minorities in Turd World shit-buckets
  12. Fatale Man-Eating Succubus

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  13. Johnson HEIL HITLER.

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    dilma :disagree:
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  14. Bluto Drunken lout

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    niggers :disagree:

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